10 Things That Forgiveness Is Not

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#16   Oct 16, '13, 2:28 pm

Jon S Junior Member   Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 1,406 Religion: Catholic Candidate

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin No. Catholic doctrine, for example, about infant baptism is not simply "proclaiming the word of God", thanksgiving, and prayer. It may include elements of those. But it adds, in my opinion, unbiblical doctrine of that baptism takes away the stain of original sin and is thus regenerative. This 1) adds to the word of God and 2) makes infant baptism much more than just an opportunity to thank God and pray for the child. It saves the child. It makes the child a Christian outside of saving faith. That is, from the perspective of evangelicals, Catholic practice and belief go well beyond the bounds of Scripture. By comparison, evangelicals are safely within in the bounds of Scripture. We are not claiming anything happens during baby dedication except: proclamation of the Word, thanksgiving, and prayer. I find this description extremely lacking, I understand what your saying and why, but you can't possibly say "it's biblical" using those few criteria. If so, all one needs to do is incorporate that to virtually any action and claim it's biblical. Perhaps that is why Protestant tradition varies so much because it is so easy to justify what is "biblical", Also, it is just your opinion that baptism removing original sin is not biblical when in fact it can be supported by scripture. All I am looking for is either consistency in your arguments or acknowledgement of tradition practiced outside the Bible. Can you identify any reformer or early church father who practiced "child dedication " As best I can tell it came on the scene in the last 100 years. __________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est Where charity and love are, God is there.

#17   Oct 16, '13, 2:37 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,158 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by Jon S I find this description extremely lacking, I understand what your saying and why, but you can't possibly say "it's biblical" using those few criteria. If so, all one needs to do is incorporate that to virtually any action and claim it's biblical. Well what definition of biblical are you using? My definition of biblical is that which conforms to the word of God. The practice of dedicating infants to God as practiced in evangelical churches conforms to the Word of God. It consists of pointing out, emphasizing, and explaining Scriptural truth that pertains to Christian parents and their children. Therefore, it has biblical content. It consists of thanksgiving and prayer, perhaps accompanied by the laying on of hands and anointing with oil. Therefore, it has biblical action. It may be a recent "tradition." But as long as its a biblical recent tradition its ok. We're not Catholics. We don't get hung up on tradition. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#18   Oct 16, '13, 2:43 pm

Filioque Regular Member   Join Date: March 13, 2008 Posts: 806 Religion: Catholic

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin ...Theologically, it draws on the birth of Samuel. His mother couldn't conceive, but she told God that if she did conceive, she would give her son back to the Lord (as in give her child to the priests at Shiloh) once he was weaned. ... ...For us, this is what happens to all children born to Christian parents. Parents are given children by God. At the appropriate time, the parents come to the house of God and "give the child back to God" in the form of dedicating their entire careers as parents to ensuring that their children know God and serve Him. This is entirely biblical. And note, that we are not creating a magical rite. This is a service of thanksgiving, blessing, and commitment. It is an expression of hope that the child will accept the Lord when they grow older. We are not claiming that anything automatic occurs to the child's soul. All we are doing is representing biblical truths, obligations, and asking God to bless the child and the parents. That is not adding something to the Bible... Well try as you may to imitate something that your sect interprets as being derived as Biblical, it is as I've posted above, private interpretation of the Scriptures to fit a belief held by your sect. In the NT we see that the dietary laws of the law or Moses are no longer binding. We see that the Old law is not binding. Yet who would argue that the Ten Commandments are not (just for argument sake, because I've met Sola Scriptura "Christians" who's sects don't believe the decagogue applies to us.) So what authority says that we should interpret one passage from Samuel, which does not directly tell us to dedicate Children, but the ignores the direct command to ransom of the first born son, and the purification of a woman after her days of confinement and impurity do not have to be upheld? Who after 1800 years of no such practice has the authority to proclaim that it is not only Scriptural, but that it needs to become a practice. and the practice of Infant Baptism which goes back to the time of the Apostles can be not simply discarded, but now denied?

#19   Oct 16, '13, 2:44 pm

Jon S Junior Member   Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 1,406 Religion: Catholic Candidate

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin Well what definition of biblical are you using? My definition of biblical is that which conforms to the word of God. The practice of dedicating infants to God as practiced in evangelical churches conforms to the Word of God. It consists of pointing out, emphasizing, and explaining Scriptural truth that pertains to Christian parents and their children. Therefore, it has biblical content. It consists of thanksgiving and prayer, perhaps accompanied by the laying on of hands and anointing with oil. Therefore, it has biblical action. It may be a recent "tradition." But as long as its a biblical recent tradition its ok. We're not Catholics. We don't get hung up on tradition. I do not understand how you can hold this position and then claim that Catholic Traditions are not biblical (confession to a priest, baptism, and Eucharist) would be great examples. Catholics tirelessly show how these conform to the Word of God, and yet they are rejected by Protestants as "unbiblical". They may be an ancient "tradition". But as long as it is a biblical ancient tradition it's ok. We're not Protestants. We don't get hung up on tradition. __________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est Where charity and love are, God is there.

#20   Oct 16, '13, 2:51 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,158 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by Filioque Well try as you may to imitate something that your sect interprets as being derived as Biblical, it is as I've posted above, private interpretation of the Scriptures to fit a belief held by your sect. In the NT we see that the dietary laws of the law or Moses are no longer binding. We see that the Old law is not binding. Yet who would argue that the Ten Commandments are not (just for argument sake, because I've met Sola Scriptura "Christians" who's sects don't believe the decagogue applies to us.) So what authority says that we should interpret one passage from Samuel, which does not directly tell us to dedicate Children, but the ignores the direct command to ransom of the first born son, and the purification of a woman after her days of confinement and impurity do not have to be upheld? Who after 1800 years of no such practice has the authority to proclaim that it is not only Scriptural, but that it needs to become a practice. and the practice of Infant Baptism which goes back to the time of the Apostles can be not simply discarded, but now denied? I get what you're saying. Simply put, evangelicals don't believe that infant baptism is biblically sanctioned or justifiable. We get that from reading the Bible. It doesn't matter how old the tradition is. We believe it is contrary to the true purpose and nature of baptism. Therefore, we will not practice it. It doesn't matter how young the tradition of infant dedication is. It is not a baptism, and therefore, it avoids the Scriptural contradictions that baptizing an infant creates. It proclaims Scriptural truths in the format of a church service or segment of a church service. It reminds the church of these Scriptural truths. It gives the church an opportunity to thank God. It gives the church an opportunity to pray for the child. This is what it does, and this is why evangelicals find nothing wrong with it. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#21   Oct 16, '13, 2:57 pm

Jon S Junior Member   Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 1,406 Religion: Catholic Candidate

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin I get what you're saying. Simply put, evangelicals don't believe that infant baptism is biblically sanctioned or justifiable. We get that from reading the Bible. It doesn't matter how old the tradition is. We believe it is contrary to the true purpose and nature of baptism. Therefore, we will not practice it. It doesn't matter how young the tradition of infant dedication is. It is not a baptism, and therefore, it avoids the Scriptural contradictions that baptizing an infant creates. It proclaims Scriptural truths in the format of a church service or segment of a church service. It reminds the church of these Scriptural truths. It gives the church an opportunity to thank God. It gives the church an opportunity to pray for the child. This is what it does, and this is why evangelicals find nothing wrong with it. I know your heart is for Christ, but do you not see the arrogance in this. You are saying that you....you personally....have the divine inspiration and revelation to throw away 2000 year old tradition and create your own practices. Thomas Aquinas.....fool Augustine.....ignorant Ignatius.....piker Really?!! __________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est Where charity and love are, God is there.

#22   Oct 16, '13, 3:01 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,158 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by Jon S I do not understand how you can hold this position and then claim that Catholic Traditions are not biblical (confession to a priest, baptism, and Eucharist) would be great examples. Catholics tirelessly show how these conform to the Word of God, and yet they are rejected by Protestants as "unbiblical". They may be an ancient "tradition". But as long as it is a biblical ancient tradition it's ok. We're not Protestants. We don't get hung up on tradition. You can confess to a priest. The Bible says confess your sins one to another. Where Catholics err is when they make this into a sacrament that is required for someone to attain forgiveness for sins. Baptism, as I've said, Catholics err because they go beyond what the Bible says about baptism. And the Eucharist is the same. The problem is not having traditions. The problem is having traditions that go beyond biblical boundaries. Once again, its not confession, baptism, or the Eucharist itself that are wrong. It's what Catholics believe (from their tradition or their interpretation of the Bible) that is in error from the perspective of evangelicals. So, simply put, evangelicals read the Bible and do not see biblical justification for believing what Catholics believe about these practices. Catholics disagree, of course. They insist that they are entirely biblical and its us who have departed from the Scriptures. And the controversy continues again and again. . . . __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#23   Oct 16, '13, 3:02 pm

Jon S Junior Member   Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 1,406 Religion: Catholic Candidate

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin You can confess to a priest. The Bible says confess your sins one to another. Where Catholics err is when they make this into a sacrament that is required for someone to attain forgiveness for sins. Baptism, as I've said, Catholics err because they go beyond what the Bible says about baptism. And the Eucharist is the same. The problem is not having traditions. The problem is having traditions that go beyond biblical boundaries. Once again, its not confession, baptism, or the Eucharist itself that are wrong. It's what Catholics believe (from their tradition or their interpretation of the Bible) that is in error from the perspective of evangelicals. So, simply put, evangelicals read the Bible and do not see biblical justification for believing what Catholics believe about these practices. Catholics disagree, of course. They insist that they are entirely biblical and its us who have departed from the Scriptures. And the controversy continues again and again. . . . I wonder how much of Christian doctrine departed from the Bible in the 50 years or more while it was being written?? __________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est Where charity and love are, God is there.

#24   Oct 16, '13, 3:03 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,158 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by Jon S I know your heart is for Christ, but do you not see the arrogance in this. You are saying that you....you personally....have the divine inspiration and revelation to throw away 2000 year old tradition and create your own practices. Thomas Aquinas.....fool Augustine.....ignorant Ignatius.....piker Really?!! Nope, didn't say anything like that. I did not single handedly think up infant dedication. And I'm sure Aquinas, Augustine, and Ignatius were much smarter than me. But intelligence is not infallibility. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#25   Oct 16, '13, 3:04 pm

Jon S Junior Member   Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 1,406 Religion: Catholic Candidate

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin Nope, didn't say anything like that. I did not single handedly think up infant dedication. And I'm sure Aquinas, Augustine, and Ignatius were much smarter than me. But intelligence is not infallibility. Yet someone, we don't know who, but someone you follow at least. Did exactly that. __________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est Where charity and love are, God is there.

#26   Oct 16, '13, 3:08 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,158 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by Jon S Yet someone, we don't know who, but someone you follow at least. Did exactly that. Did what? The men you mentioned had not greater insight into God's will than we do today. Their teachings are not above question. That doesn't mean that they were stupid. It just means they are not above question. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#27   Oct 16, '13, 3:14 pm

Jon S Junior Member   Join Date: May 9, 2013 Posts: 1,406 Religion: Catholic Candidate

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin Did what? The men you mentioned had not greater insight into God's will than we do today. Their teachings are not above question. That doesn't mean that they were stupid. It just means they are not above question. What I am trying to show you is some unknown person said we should do child dedications and not baptisms. We don't know who and we don't know why, but it "seems" biblical so why not. Them we know of people who wrote volumes on child baptism and the Bible who appealed to scripture tirelessly and we so easily dismiss them for some new teaching that is perhaps. "Easier" or "less miraculous" or "more rational" It corresponds to my Evangelical teaching that God no longer performs miracles. It's too irrational after all to believe in modem day miracles. __________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est Where charity and love are, God is there.

#28   Oct 16, '13, 3:15 pm

Novocastrian New Member   Join Date: September 10, 2013 Posts: 202 Religion: Church of England (Catholic and reformed)

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony I know that this is allowed in the Church of England, I think as a "Thanksgiving for the birth of a child". Now, the Church of England does teach that infants should be baptised, but she also thinks it prudent to allow for a lesser thanksgiving and blessing for a child if (1) the parents do not believe in infant baptism, and it seems like they have a choice between infant baptism and not bringing the child up in the church at all, and/or; (2) one or both of the parents is not Christian. In the modern world, mixed marriages do exist. Say an Anglican is married to a fundamentalist Baptist/ Jew/ Muslim; the Church teaches that baptism would be the right thing for their child, but that if they really can't agree to that, it would still be good and proper to come to Church and thank God for the gift of a child. The closest analogy of which I can think is the Orthodox Churches approach to divorce and remarriage. They say that divorce is a sin, but that it sometimes happens. They have lesser, penitential marriage services for those who have committed the sin of divorce, while recognising that imperfect laypeople (as opposed to those who have an higher responsibility, e.g. the clergy) should be treated gently if the alternative is turning away from Christ and his Church altogether. The maintain principle (so they would argue), but compromise with regard to practice.

#29   Oct 16, '13, 3:21 pm

Country Gal Junior Member   Join Date: June 12, 2013 Posts: 901 Religion: Catholic (fallen away)

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by Novocastrian I know that this is allowed in the Church of England, I think as a "Thanksgiving for the birth of a child". Now, the Church of England does teach that infants should be baptised, but she also thinks it prudent to allow for a lesser thanksgiving and blessing for a child if (1) the parents do not believe in infant baptism, and it seems like they have a choice between infant baptism and not bringing the child up in the church at all, and/or; (2) one or both of the parents is not Christian. In the modern world, mixed marriages do exist. Say an Anglican is married to a fundamentalist Baptist/ Jew/ Muslim; the Church teaches that baptism would be the right thing for their child, but that if they really can't agree to that, it would still be good and proper to come to Church and thank God for the gift of a child. The closest analogy of which I can think is the Orthodox Churches approach to divorce and remarriage. They say that divorce is a sin, but that it sometimes happens. They have lesser, penitential marriage services for those who have committed the sin of divorce, while recognising that imperfect laypeople (as opposed to those who have an higher responsibility, e.g. the clergy) should be treated gently if the alternative is turning away from Christ and his Church altogether. The maintain principle (so they would argue), but compromise with regard to practice. Very well said. __________________ Amy Farrah Fowler: "I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance."

#30   Oct 16, '13, 3:25 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,158 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Evangelical Child Dedication Ceremony Quote: Originally Posted by Jon S What I am trying to show you is some unknown person said we should do child dedications and not baptisms. We don't know who and we don't know why, but it "seems" biblical so why not. Them we know of people who wrote volumes on child baptism and the Bible who appealed to scripture tirelessly and we so easily dismiss them for some new teaching that is perhaps. "Easier" or "less miraculous" or "more rational" It corresponds to my Evangelical teaching that God no longer performs miracles. It's too irrational after all to believe in modem day miracles. I'm Pentecostal, I'm irrational and I believe in the miraculous. It has nothing to do with denying the miraculous. For example, during my baby dedication, my grandpa spontaneously prophesied over me and my twin brother. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee